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Author Topic: forger  (Read 9242 times)
Rafael
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« on: October 21, 2008, 11:19:00 PM »

Sometimes ago I was commented with Ren? about a guy selling a lot of false Odyssey games, but today after get home I was surprised by a lot of "prototypes" he?s selling:

Tutankham
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-83050004-protoptico-odyssey-tutankham-_JM
Shark Hunter
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-83048704-protoptico-odyssey-cacador-de-tubares-shark-hunter--_JM
JG Munchikin
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-83049255-protoptico-odyssey-come-come-das-trevas-_JM
Mr. Roboto:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-83049683-protoptico-odyssey-mr-roboto-_JM
Pong:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-83049870-protoptico-odyssey-pong-telejogo--_JM
Spiderman:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-83050160-protoptico-odyssey-spiderman-_JM

It?s really sad Sad
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manopac
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 12:01:00 AM »

hm ... not so sure if I would feel so bad about what he's doing ... actually he is only selling selfmade carts of games which were discovered as prototypes before ... (so basically what everyone else who releases prototypes does as well ...)

From reading your post I first thought he would really sell them as "prototypes", but its clearly visible that they are reproduced, so he's not violating the (original) authors rights more or less than everyone else ...

(this is assuming that Mr. Roboto and Pong are the original carts sold by packrat and not some reproduced carts where the authors Rene and Ted are not getting any money from)

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Seob
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 12:18:36 AM »

i think rene and ted are not getting money for what he is selling.
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Rafael
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 12:29:15 AM »

Well, I think some people are trying and spending time to keep the Ody alive, while others are just trying some advantage with it. First, he?s selling it as prototype, none mention to "reproduction" so he?s lying and trying to foll. Ren? and Ted spent a lot of work to bring us this new releases, and now this guy selling it as "prototype"?
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Rene_G7400
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2008, 12:58:42 AM »

It still feels like he is selling illegal copies, because the "original" releases are still available, like Tutankham, Spiderman, Pong and Mr. Roboto. A normal person wouldn't do that.
For Mr. Roboto and Pong he has copied the cartridge label too. I can't imagine he has bought the carts from Packrat and is reselling them. He's not selling the manuals, right?

And I haven't put all those Videopac and Odyssey2 ROM files online so someone else can make money of them. They are meant for private use only.
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Rafael
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2008, 02:13:51 AM »

It still feels like he is selling illegal copies, because the "original" releases are still available, like Tutankham, Spiderman, Pong and Mr. Roboto. A normal person wouldn't do that.
For Mr. Roboto and Pong he has copied the cartridge label too. I can't imagine he has bought the carts from Packrat and is reselling them. He's not selling the manuals, right?
He?s not selling the manuals, just the cartdridge.  If we think about Pong, for example, Ren? spent time coding it, PDF spent time making a great cover, (if I?m not wrong) Ozyr makes the manual, Packrat produced the carts and showing the new games on gaming events, so where is this guy participation on it? All the people make it by passion. It?s not correct and disheartening. I jsut forgot to report Interpol:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-83049445-protoptico-odyssey-interpol-_JM
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 02:16:38 AM by Rafael » Logged
Sweersa
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2008, 02:41:48 AM »

Wow, that guy is a selfish jerk.  What a loser.  I feel bad for anyone he rips off.

I plan on buying a number of home brews at Packrat video games.
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manopac
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2008, 10:28:54 AM »

It still feels like he is selling illegal copies, because the "original" releases are still available, like Tutankham, Spiderman, Pong and Mr. Roboto. A normal person wouldn't do that.
For Mr. Roboto and Pong he has copied the cartridge label too. I can't imagine he has bought the carts from Packrat and is reselling them. He's not selling the manuals, right?

And I haven't put all those Videopac and Odyssey2 ROM files online so someone else can make money of them. They are meant for private use only.

from my original reply: "(this is assuming that Mr. Roboto and Pong are the original carts sold by packrat and not some reproduced carts where the authors Rene and Ted are not getting any money from)"

thats what I was not sure off, IF the Mr Roboto and the Pong carts are NOT the originals then he's definitly ripping people off ...

as for Tut and Spiderman:
1. he's not selling false prototypes - everyone can clearly see that those are not prototype cartridges (if he burned eproms and left the case off and sold them THEN as prototypes ... well thats something different ...)

2. (and more important) there's no original release, and thats my point ... he can make copies of Spiderman, Interpol, Tut, whatever other prototype or original release as long as he wants, as he's not violating more copyrights than Dieter, Bas, Nico, Richard,... (and just because one of them released a game on a cartridge doesn't make them the owner of any copyrights on the game ... only on the work they put in the release themselves, be it the cover art or the manual - and he didn't copy those of spiderman or tut, he used the original Parker release art on the labels (different story for Interpol - he used the cover art for the label and thats someone elses work ...))

the thing is: you should all get away from believing that someone magically gets the right to release a game he didn't write ... people doing this are in a VERY gray area ... just having a copy of a game (by whatever means, prototype, bin-file, original cart) doesn't give anyone the copyright on a game ... so ANYONE releasing the game violates the same rights ...

Actually you could raise the point even further ... is he violating more rights than lets say Dieter did with Tut by releasing Pong or Mr. Roboto ?? The copyrights on a game don't magically disappear if the game isn't sold anymore ... (or was never sold)

(sorry Dieter to use you as an example :-) )

Dieter violated with Tut: Parkers rights for all the art, the Developers of Tut (either Parker if they paid for it or any other company who paid the programmer for it or the programmer if he was not paid for it) for the binary.
what if Parker would release a compilation of games today including Tut ? would it still be ok to buy the cartridge from Dieter ? even though you could buy the game now from the makers ?

other example: Sega Dreamcast: was it correct that Half-Life was released to the public by the person who own the prototype? You could still buy the game for other platforms then, the developer (Valve) was (and is) still in business ... it only wasn't released for the Dreamcast ... (and the argument "they couldn't make money anymore from it as the system was dead" doesn't count - look at A2600 compilations from Activision or Nintendo Wii's Virtual Console ...)

somehow I always get the feeling when it comes to releasing prototypes, that a lot of people in this forum think that some people do suddenly have some rights for that ... (either because they were the first to release a game or they own a prototype or whatever) and thats SIMPLY NOT THE CASE !

I don't want to offend anyone with what I wrote, I simply want you to think about it ... and even I would love to see more games released for the Videopac just as everyone else here does, even so its legally not right ...

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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2008, 11:06:38 AM »

I agree 100 % with manopac.

I am releasing all those old prototypes because they are fully playable games and I always wanted to see those released. That's why I did it and because I had much fun in designing all the paper stuff. I am in contact with most of the programmers of those prototypes and they were ALL very happy that their games did finally see the light of day, so to speak.

It is, however, very unclear who owns the rights to those games. Probably not the programmers themselves, but the companies they worked for, or Philips or Parker.

I am fully aware that this is a grey zone, but I don't think Philips or Parker will care. As most of the prototypes have been released in the meantime, this story will soon have its end and I will have to write my own games Wink

So I have in fact no problem that this Brazil guy is selling those games too. I would have a problem with him if he would use my artwork.

I see it different in his case of Rene's and Ted's releases. In fact he is doing the same here than I do with my old Philips/Parker releases. But as Philips/Parker would maybe complain about my releases if they knew, Rene and Ted also should complain about those releases, as they have the copyrights to those games. Maybe we all should write this guy messages that he is infringing copyrights with Rene's and Ted's games.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 11:10:35 AM by ccc--- » Logged

manopac
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2008, 11:08:52 AM »

I see it different in his case of Rene's and Ted's releases. In fact he is doing the same here than I do with my old Philips/Parker releases. But as Philips/Parker would maybe complain about my releases if they knew, Rene and Ted also should complain about those releases, as they have the copyrights to those games. Maybe we all should write this guy messages that he is infringing copyrights with Rene's and Ted's games.

maybe we should buy them whenever he offers them and never pay (explaining him why) - this would teach him and make sure that noone else can get ripped off by buying those instead of the packrat releases ?
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2008, 11:09:47 AM »

Yep, that would be another way.
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ANDYRYALS
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Oh Bollocks can I afford that Ebay item?


« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2008, 11:38:04 AM »

MMMmmmm.... Interesting debate..........  Huh? Huh?
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I have 12"
Rene_G7400
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2008, 11:44:59 AM »

Concerning Tutankham and Spiderman: I'm not talking about legal rights here. I know that no-one else but Philips or Parker have the rights to release/sell those games. What I'm talking about is that Dieter and Bas (and others) have put a lot of time and effort in making a nice release, and now someone else is just copying those releases. I know this person probably hasn't violated any law, but it's just something you shouldn't do in my opinion.
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manopac
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2008, 12:18:53 PM »

how about Interpol ? you can't buy that one anymore ...

and as far as I can tell he's not copying the releases, he just takes the bin and burns it to an eprom and prints a lable (which isn't even the same one as on the "released" spiderman or tut) -> he is not copying all the work dieter and bas and others have done for their releases (the manuals, covers, lables)

I could just as well take Martian Threat (as an example) and burn it and release it, make my own manual, my own boxes etc. - if I would do it nice enough so people buy it, fine, if releases by other people are better, people will buy those ... as long as I don't take other peoples work (appart the game-bin itself Wink) I don't think what he does is different from what everyone else does ...

so why shouldn't he do it ? (again: not talking about him releasing your and ted's game, thats just wrong)
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 12:38:14 PM »

manopac is right - we really need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that anyone's got more "right" to release an unreleased prototype without anything in writing from the original rights holder.  This was already creating a bit of problem in the community a little while back before this fellow popped up; but these auctions just bring it into sharp focus.  Yes, anyone with an EPROM burner could just make their own cartridges of these games, their own labels/boxes/etc., and technically be no more "in the wrong" than those members of the community who do so.  This just represents a violation of the "gentlemen's rules" I mentioned some time back when there was a conflict as to who was releasing (I think it was) Robot City.  But of course, the seller is probably not a member of the community (though wouldn't it be interesting if they were?) and probably feels no remorse for violating any agreement that might be reached here.

Now, with regard to the carts written by Rene, Ted and so on - that's probably where he needs to be challenged.  I'm not sure how much of a "fight" to make out of this; making a huge display out of it could just as easily backfire and get our proto-releasing "good guys" in trouble.  But something needs to be said on behalf of the programmers who are pouring sweat and time into making original O2 games.  There's also a grey area with games that Rene or someone else has worked on to make them NTSC-friendly; still not "their" games but they clearly have a stake in it now.

I think the simple answer here is that somebody out there's an S.O.B.!   Angry
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