K.C. MUNCHKIN REDUX!

[grips03]

K.C. Redux Redux

[Janzl]

 :D

[Jim]

I don't know anyone here personally.  I don't know Michael from GDG (I think I've bought about three  things from him over the past ~15 years, including K.C Redux).  I don't know if anyone is meaning to be rude, but I could certainly understand how Michael would take it that way.  I'm not going to rehash the "K.C.'s Escape!"  thread (there's a fair amount of pro and anti-Michael stuff there).

I ordered K.C. MUNCHKIN REDUX! partly to show Michael some support after reading the K.C.'s Escape thread.  The other reason I ordered it is because I like K.C. Munchkin and think it'd be cool to have the same old game but with different mazes.  But it really shouldn't matter why I want to order this game or why Michael wants to make/sell it (assuming he's not doing something unethical like stealing someone else's work of course).

Why does anyone care if Michael releases a new K.C Muchkin Redux 2 later this year?  Why does it matter if this is a hack?  Michael himself describes this as a "mini-project", not some ground breaking new game.  If I want to buy a new K.C. Redux every month you may think that's a little silly, but it doesn't make it wrong.  Online it's easy to be inconsiderate of others feelings.  If you were talking face-to-face with Michael would you say these things?

I'm all for constructive criticism (like I didn't like the gameplay because the difficulty was too hard/easy, the controls were off, etc.).  Doug makes a legitimate point that the game could be better with more mazes to choose from.  However the other negative comments just seem to be berating the game for being what it is.  It's like saying "you shouldn't buy the Calculator cart because it's just a calculator".  While I haven't seen my copy of the game yet, I have no reason to believe that Michael misrepresented it.  If your negative comment doesn't add any new info, then why post it?  We're all adults here, we all know what the game is.  It's not like Michael is trying to trick some gullible kids into buying something.

In closing, I  don't think our small Odyssey 2 community can afford to be needlessly mean to someone's that's trying to add to the community. 

[Janzl]

Yes I had some critisism and I didn't try to be rude or personal, I judge a project as it is and take into account my experience in all my years as a collector.

The real problem I have is the price. And why is that? Because a lot of collectors are completionists want to have everything that they can get. Sometimes I get the feeling that this is being taken advantage of. Most homebrew releases are completely new games, come with a nice manual and sometimes more. Yet the prices for these release vary from 27-34€ for the standard releases. Some are more expensive but they come with compleyely homebuilt carton boxes, like Tutankham for instance.

Yes, I'm not a fan of K.C's escape, the gameplay isn't well thought out and audio is hardly there, which makes me loose interest very fast. I wanted it because it was a new Munchkin game and Ed's autograph was on it. Yes, Michael offered to take it back and I choose to keep it, as I am still a bit of a collector. Totally it cost me around 90€.

Frustrated feelings about this were still very fresh as Munchkin Redux appeared with "four" new mazes. It's only a light hack and they want a lot of money again. The game contains only two new mazes (the other two are only slight variations of the first two). This feel like a quick job to reel some cash in. If they had said "price is $19" I would have said yes, thats an okay price for what this release is.

Also the limited release, which feels like putting more pressure on collectors to buy it, is something I don't like. But hey that's my opinion as I don't like the deliberate creation of collectors items. Again, others probably will think different about it.

I have no intention to attack Michael personally, as I think he has also done a lot of great things for the community in the past! I am criticising this release.

I know more people do feel a bit suckered by Munchkin Redux and therefore jokes will be made, it's human.

[Jim]

Yes I had some critisism and I didn't try to be rude or personal, I judge a project as it is and take into account my experience in all my years as a collector.

A few more thoughts..

A quick background on me, I try to always assume the best about people (like all humans I'm not perfect in this .  I don't assume you or anyone else has a personal vendetta against Michael and I don't assume Michael is in this just for the money.  On rare occasions assuming the best may put me at risk of being taken advantage of, but it almost always makes me a happier person.  If something can be explained with a positive instead of a negative reason assuming the positive is more uplifting even if I'm wrong.

Regarding limited releases, I thought this was the norm and it was done because of economies of scale.  I.e. it's easier to site down and make 100 carts than to make them one at a time as they're ordered.  I hadn't considered this would be done to drive up price.  However even if the primary motivation is to increase price I guess that doesn't really bother me.  I just view that as part of the seller's freedom to charge whatever he wants just as I have the freedom to buy or not buy whatever I want.

When it comes to price I would certainly rather pay less.  Money is a limiting factor for me (it didn't take me long to give up on collecting all the Odyssey carts).  I know someone else has posted before the idea of selling just the downloadable ROMs for less money.  This would take a great leap of faith on the seller's part, but I would certainly prefer and support something like that.  There has been some amazing packaging made for homebrews which I think is great, but asides from money, space for all the carts becomes an issue too.  Downloadable ROMs would solve both of these problems, but I'm digressing.

All of your points are valid and legitimate.  The only place where I'd differ with you is how to express them.  IMHO best way to "vote" against a game is to simply not buy it.  Of course honest feedback about why a cart isn't selling well is valuable too, but there's a fine line between constructive criticism and meanness.  I just think we should all think twice about how what we post might be taken, it's too easy for misunderstandings to happen in online forums.

Lastly, just as I appreciate Michael's contribution to the community I also appreciate all of the other people on this forum that create games, run the forums (Janzl) and otherwise keep the small O2 scene alive.  Thank you all.  I wish I could be a more active/contributing member, but right now I just don't have the time (rarely post) or money (rarely buy O2 games).  Hopefully I'll have more of both someday and will be able to contribute more.

[ccc---]

Frustrated feelings about this were still very fresh as Munchkin Redux appeared with "four" new mazes. It's only a light hack and they want a lot of money again. The game contains only two new mazes (the other two are only slight variations of the first two). This feel like a quick job to reel some cash in. If they had said "price is $19" I would have said yes, thats an okay price for what this release is.

I am with Janzl here ...

And ... people, this is a forum. It would make no sense if noone would express his/her opinion. This should be no place where everyone praises everything. I also think that Munchkin Redux is too expensive for what it has to offer, so I don't buy it, and would like to express my opinion. Jim, I think noone ever attacked Michael here, so I don't understand the flap.

[Jim]

And ... people, this is a forum. It would make no sense if noone would express his/her opinion. This should be no place where everyone praises everything. I also think that Munchkin Redux is too expensive for what it has to offer, so I don't buy it, and would like to express my opinion. Jim, I think noone ever attacked Michael here, so I don't understand the flap.

As I said there's a fine line between constructive and unhelpful criticism.  IMHO stating that the price is steep for 4 mazes is more helpful than "I don't like your game of 4 new mazes because it's a game of 4 new mazes."  (Of course no one stated those exacts words, but that's how I'd summarize several of the posts).  Attacking the game for being exactly what he said it is just seems silly and unnecessary especially after all the flack he took for K.C.'s Escape.

[Janzl]

It's the combination of just four mazes and the price they are asking. It's basically a light hack which means, in my opinon, altering somebody elses work a bit and then try to make money of it.

Maybe I should have mentioned the price in my first comment but I thought that issue was kind of obvious.

[Rafael]

It's like saying "you shouldn't buy the Calculator cart because it's just a calculator". 

In principle I think this placement / thought is very sad. If I teach you how to hack a game, probably later in the evening you will be able to make your own KC hack (you will also understand why 4 or 5 rather than 30 mazes have been made), until you can change colors, shapes, etc. To start dreaming about doing a project like Calculator, you need a lot of study and dedication.

[Rafael]

"Why does anyone care if Michael releases a new K.C Muchkin Redux 2 later this year?  Why does it matter if this is a hack?  Michael himself describes this as a "mini-project", not some ground breaking new game. "
The cool part of being part of a community is that in a way you end up knowing the longings of its members. I myself, before putting something up for sale, asked about possible interest: https://videopac.nl/forum/index.php?topic=1830.0. So some things can not be so simplistic. And the most important part of this has already been explained by Robert, a lot of people here (which is where the biggest fans of the console are) are completist. When I heard about the Pinball release I immediately emailed Michael, two reasons: 1) I'm a fan of the Odyssey brand and would like to at least have all the games of the brand 2) Odyssey needs a good Pinball, at the Midnight Magic level of the 2600 or Intv's Pinball. When I heard about the price, I quickly declined. I soon learned that the extra "variations" as well as the heap of things in the package only served to justify the package price. I have to open a couple of letters to say that I had the opportunity to exchange letters with Baer and I'm sure if I sent him a piece of paper for him, he would send me an autograph. Then came KC something, which also had no concern to follow the quality of the games of KC. And, again we had the extras. If I buy Speedway, I do not want a piece of asphalt as a toast, I just want the game. Then we came to the hack, and as I said at the beginning it is very important to know the members of a community. I have at least 40 hacks that I do for hobby, many of them are out there, like the plus versions of QFTR, Power Lords, Acrobats etc. I have other things including KC (I've attached some pictures). Now, imagine your I resolve to launch each hack and charge $ 44 for each hack? So you say, "It's a mini-project," but this is only an aggravating factor, since I paid much less for an extremely well finished game with a richly illustrated manual, as was the case with Tutankham. And that's where the second part of the frustration comes in, if the mini project takes 5 minutes to get ready costs 44, I ask if I'll have to sell my house and my car to be able to buy the upcomming Big Project (considering that as an Odyssey fan and I'm probably interested in him), But I do not know what the price is for a project, but what is the fair price for a project? "To answer this question, you have to remember that hacks are not new here. example, has released things that I find very cool, such as Killer Bees + and Western +, mainly because they have a historical background.
With this, I say that I am not against kacks, as long as they have some "why", changing colors and mazes of a fun game only makes it fun, it is very comfortable. Take the Money and Run cries have trillions of mazes, but none of them feel that the game is good. But there are others who find it totally meaningless (IMO) like Alien + or Impossible Mission David Bowie tribute But did Marc do this to explore the "completists"? The answer is no. Mar did because he was passionate about the console, he loves to always be creating something. And if I did a hack whose only change was to change the KC from blue to pink, he would buy it. So the fair value is the one you would pay on a product. And I think this should be thought of when putting something up for sale. Another reason I questioned this is because this month we had the release of two hacks. I know that people like Ivan and Manopac have solid designs, but imagine if people stop producing new games because they have hackmania. No! I want Incomming, I want Grid Defender, now !!! David (Packrat) has intentions to launch some hacks in the future, but as he is a completist and conscious his prices will be far below it. And speaking of Packrat, you can not help but notice that there is something wrong when you see Mr. Roboto for 29 and KC Redux for 44. And if you chose KC Redux instead of something like Mr. Roboto it's a shame, you just stopped honing those who had a really hard job to bring something new.

[Doug]

Neat hacks, where are they?

I wish someone would hack KC Munchkin to add powerups, for example a powerup that stopped the dots from moving, or turned KC into a magnet so the dots would move toward him, or turned all the dots into power dots, or sent the ghosts to the pen...

There are lots of possibilities.

[Jim]

It's like saying "you shouldn't buy the Calculator cart because it's just a calculator".  

In principle I think this placement / thought is very sad. If I teach you how to hack a game, probably later in the evening you will be able to make your own KC hack (you will also understand why 4 or 5 rather than 30 mazes have been made), until you can change colors, shapes, etc. To start dreaming about doing a project like Calculator, you need a lot of study and dedication.

I'm sorry for not explaining myself well, I didn't mean to offend anyone (certainly not Rene van den Enden).  I was not comparing Calculator to "K.C. MUNCHKIN REDUX!".  I was not commenting on difficulty of creating Calculator.  I simply used Calculator because I thought it'd be a good example since everyone knows what a calculator is.  I could have used any Odyssey cartridge.  For example I could have said either of these:

• "you shouldn't buy the "Pick Axe Pete!" cart because it just plays "Pick Axe Pete!"
• "you shouldn't buy the "Baseball!" cart because it just plays "Baseball!"

If I like Pick Axe Pete! and Baseball! then why does anyone care if I buy them?  The general point I was trying to make was what does it matter why I want to buy a cart?  How does my buying something harm anyone else?  You answered this question in your longer post which I'll address with my second post.

Note I like Pick Axe Pete! and have never played Odyssey Baseball!, I don't mean to put down those games either, they're just examples.

[Jim]

The cool part of being part of a community is that in a way you end up knowing the longings of its members...

Thank you for your detailed post Rafael.  I think I better understand your position now.

To recap what I wrote, I was responding to people saying they didn't like K.C. MUNCHKIN REDUX! primarily because of low level of effort required to create it (since it's just a hack of a old Odyssey game) and also because of its (high) price.  I didn't understand why the creation effort and/or price mattered.  My concern was that Michael (and perhaps other cart makers) would be offended by this and less likely to make Odyssey cartridges.  In my opinion more cartridges (options) for the Odyssey can only be a good thing.  If a game is not good then few will buy it, only the game creator is hurt.

If I correctly understand the opposing viewpoint you (or really everyone except me apparently ) has is  that someone selling an expensive ROM hack is bad because:
1.  The completist Odyssey fans now have to spend a lot of money on a poor game
2.  Money that goes to a cheap hack means less money that will be given to creators who put a lot of effort into creating original Odyssey cartridges
3.  If sales are hacks are successful than other cart makers will stop making original games and instead just make hacks

I can most relate to reasons 2 and 3, I too would rather have good Odyssey games than poor games.  However in my opinion the lack of sales of a poor game is enough to keep the Odyssey from being flooded with poor games.  Therefore I don't see a lot of money leaving the original game creators and going to hack creators.  I'm more concerned about those like Michael deciding not to make more games because others roast him for making games that are not good enough.  Who gets to decide what is good?  I think each person should be able to decide for himself if a game is good or not and if a game is worth its price.

Note I also did not buy K.C.'s Escape! because I wasn't interested in its extras, I thought the price was too high and I didn't think the gameplay looked fun.  However I don't hold any hard feelings towards anyone that bought it.  It doesn't bother me if someone enjoys K.C.'s Escape!.  Instead I'm glad that there's another Odyssey game option available.

I do appreciate that a game like Mr. Roboto takes more effort to create.  I own Mr. Roboto and enjoy it.  However I also enjoy K.C. MUNCHKIN REDUX! and don't regret my purchase.  It is exactly what it appears to be, a simple hack of K.C Munchkin which I enjoy.

I realize I'm in the minority here.  Thank you for giving my the opportunity to express my opinion without being flamed.  Let me know if I misunderstood your position, but I can accept that fact that I just have a different view than most here.

[Rafael]

First, I hope I did not look rude or anything. English is not my native language and I often have to turn to the translator. If for any reason I offended you or Michael or anyone, I apologize. Well, let's go. As Dieter said it is important that the forum be used, it is our chance to correct ourselves is to do the best possible, not only for yourself, but for everyone. It is unthinkable that whoever does something is subject to criticism, I quote my example. My dream (or at least one of them) was to make Odyssey games, the internet and the many wonderful people I met here and there, made it possible. When I began to feel that my first games were walking I was amazed and were certain to be blind. Anyway, when I launched them I received some criticism. I think that at the time I did not absorb it very well, but finally, as I was learning more and improving as a programmer and consequently realizing more happiness in people you learn that it is not only you, if your work is honest and your goal is not is to take money from people, you have to read and try to absorb what people wrote and think above all to offer them at least a game with reasonable price / chart / sounds / gameplay / graphics. I myself was asking Marc to also strive to improve the quality of the manuals, that I wanted something not to sell to people, but something that was on par with the other Odyssey games I have. I live in Brazil last year we had the joy of promoting the 1st Odyssey Encounter and seeing happy people playing Forbidden Lands and looking with great joy at pro manual, seeing people playing with enthusiasm Haunted Woods and Laser Blitz is something that pays off. In the last week I received the game Golf Tournament, from our friend Ivan Machado and besides the excellent game, you see that beautiful manual, perfect label is like a journey in time. So everything that people write here is meant for the community. I know that if I make a game, whose goal is just to walk with your character on the screen and ask for something around $ 50 will have people buying, sadly, but will buy. Having said that, and even if I do my best, criticism will persist, and so I think the key word above all is to do honest work. I love Odyssey and of course we want to see Michael and whoever brings new work. But fair pricing is one of the things we want. You mentioned Mr. Roboto, even though Mr. Roboto is such a wonderful game you would have bought it if it cost $ 100. This is thinking about the community. The frustration I had with Pinball was this, I loved the cover of the game, it was going to look beautiful in my collection, but I had to give up the game. Although I do not collect other systems, I also like other classic consoles and these prices are a lot off what is praticed.

https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1119

https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1107


And so, Redux makes a bad impression, and at least for me anticipates new fru$tration for the "Big Project".

[Rafael]

Neat hacks, where are they? I wish someone would hack KC Munchkin to add powerups, for example a powerup that stopped the dots from moving, or turned KC into a magnet so the dots would move toward him, or turned all the dots into power dots, or sent the ghosts to the pen...
There are lots of possibilities.

As in the first adventure KC faced the Monsters, in the 2nd faced Dratapillar and the Drats, I would like it if there was a third game that was totally new, with new enemies, and in its natural habitat: the maze. I think if there was a third adventure back then that was how it would be. Something like Ted was planning for PAP2, a new game, with the same spirit.